View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:13 am



Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive 
Author Message
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:49 am
Posts: 46
Post New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Hi,

In this post I'll try to explain why I find the new armor system flawed, without providing solutions yet (as I don't want to risk being flamed even more like I sometimes was in the past)

Fire is omnipresent in the game, and that's probably the reason fireproof was available as an add-on in the first place.
Fire can be produced by :
  • Firethrower
  • Plasma cannon
  • Mass driver (or Artillery Canon)
  • C4
  • Remote C4
  • Rocket launcher
  • Any Mech Rockets I think (does that count multiple times ?)
  • Titan Firethrower
  • Flaming bodies

Basically everything that's explosive produces fire.


Now why would I care about a chemical armor seriously ?
There are only 4 types of things that produces chem damages :
  • The T-CAL Tiberium Autorifle (who anybody hardly pick anymore)
  • The Chemthrower (still rare to see one)
  • Tiberium crystals (in fields, and only harvesters who have picked one can throw it)
  • Chemical burning bodies

That makes 9 vs 4.
But even more : Those 9 firesources are much more present in the game than any of those chemsources.
And to think a player dared telling there was two weapons who produced chems vs "only one" who produced fire .... I was speechless (but now I just recovered, lol)


Now, Harvesters, being naturally weak from their previsible harvesting pattern between the refinery and the field, are made even weaker from the fact they can't face fire "at all". They are now the only classes who don't support armor switching.
Harvester are made to be weak ? Fine. They were. Now they're weaker.

This clearly demonstrate (at least for me) how fireproof is highly desirable. Or at least fire armor, if it replaces your current armor and doesn't stack.


Also, now, getting a fireproofed armor is even tidier.

Before, you had two solutions :
  • Ask the utility from your team (if it ever had one !) to make it for you.
    You can ask, sometimes the player won't even answer, will just ignorate you, even if you donate money to him. Worse ... he may not know a single word of english.
  • So in these cases, let's switch to the second solution. You pick utility (650$) make a fireproof (100$), and resign. (you're then partially refounded) Now, it can occur a player just stole your fireproof when he could have asked for one. (...) If not, you pick it, and choose the class you wanted. Expensive, but it works and it's worth the price (you die less)

Now it's even harder. When you want to get a fireproof :
  • You can still ask the utility of your team (if you ever had one in it), same problems.
  • You choose to do it on your own. If you make one, you can't pick it immedately after resigning, because It will be overrided by your new class armor ! So, what you have to do is : Buy utility, make a fireproof somewhere hidden in your base, come back to the terminal, resign, buy your class, and get back to where you had hidden your fireproof. I'm sorry, but it's just a pain in the ass, because if you don't hide it, you can be sure someone will take it.
    You could also spawn 5 fireproofs in your spawnroom. It costs 500$, then. You buy your class, come back to the spawnroom and ... there is a high chance all of them will be gone, again. Because you can be spawned anywhere in the base, and the way back can be long.


In my opinion, and it seems pretty obvious to me, Fireproof was meant to be an add-on. As I said, fire is omnipresent in the game. That's also the same reason chemproof, explosion resistance, laser resistance, and flak jacket were only available in crates and not from utility (beside the obvious fact you could stack them). Because, even if they are good (particularly Flak Jacket, to counter Miniguns and SSG which are both deadly weapons), they are next to worthless in comparison with fireproof.

Heck, with a stealth trooper, I even laid a nuke right before a terminal hiding in flames with 3 SSG guys all around me who couldn't notice it because of the burning noises and the flames which covered me.

To that some can answer it's overpowered. lol. I would answer them : No, it's just a creative way of playing. It's stealthing, learn it, please.

Also, the same mentality goes on pretty quickly with mass driver jumping. I used to refine quicker, jumping and dodging projectiles and shots. On AOW11, Disk Defrag, I can refine quickly without stairs. Now if ever miss a jump (which occurs often) it leaves me from 100 HP to ... 28 HP. Mass driver jumping is ruined for harvesters.

Now I can see clearly everyone frustrated (because they tried it, and failed, because they do it wrong - and can't deal with the fact some actually do it right) coming to say "Massdriver jumping is wrong, it shouldn't exists in the first place". I'm sorry, but massdriver jumping is actually a skill inherent to AOW. It doesn't exist anywhere else. It's not even comparable to rocket jumping, it's better because of the recoil, and simply ... more fun. Before, I've seen more people do it right. It seems to have become a lost art, and new people who think of themselves that they are being skilled talk without knowing it.


So, all in all, there are two different problems :
  • the new armor system which clearly isn't finished (you pick a crate, you loose your current elemental armor for anything else random, because the new system prevent stacking) It does make the crates even more undesirable. I mean why the hell would I even pick one now ? lol
  • the disappearance of fireproof as an add-on, fire being the most predominant element in the game.


Thanks for having read all of this,
and please... don't flame me ;)

Joe


Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:28 am
Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:03 pm
Posts: 1065
Location: British Columbia
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Sup TeaTime.

Anyways, no one is going to "flame" you, they will only voice their opinions versus yours. Keep that in mind as you read the rest of this.

Say what you wish about the armor system, though its effectiveness in countering certain classes over others and encouraging class diversity to effectively support other teammates's weaknesses and simplifying over 50 different armor types and upgrades previously into a streamlined system is a step up from before. It discourages "lone wolf" play because a single player without support can be taken care of with the proper counter. A varied-class group is much harder to take down. I do say the strengths and weaknesses of each are exaggerated a bit, but I had no say in that, so whatever.

As for fire itself, I do agree that it's all too common around the battlefield in places that don't even make sense (why does plasma cannon leave fluorescent electrical "fire" instead of laser damage plasma decays?) and that reducing the sheer amount of fire everywhere due to explosions would help out an issue such as this. It would also reduce the amount of FPS and ear rape from so much fire burning at the same time. Rocket launchers and mech rockets certainly don't require fire decays, while the artillery cannon is iffy. The rest seem fine to make fire, if only for a second or two after explosion as the explosion's heat dissipates.

As for Harvesters, well, if we reduce the overwhelming number of fire sources in the game, hopefully it won't have such a large impact on such classes. Personally, I don't think it'd hurt to make the tiberium rifle more useful to make chemproof worthy. The making of fireproof armor in spawn being overwritten by the class you choose was an honest oversight and Dusk has already fixed it.

Massdriver jumping is all fine and dandy. It's handy for all classes, save for chemical based ones that are weak to fire. If artillery cannons didn't spawn fire, that'd fix that. I'm all for creative harvesting but it's not like you could jump more than a few times as a harvester anyway without burning to death. Not much has changed there. Harvesters are best protected, and have always been designed from the ground up like so in AOW and all CNC games. Just be happy you even have a gun to shoot back with, CNC harvesters sure don't. Escort them and protect their grounds in the name of teamwork. I'd still rather have the artillery just not spawn fire (its damage is already pretty damn good).

As for those terrible, selfish Utility Guys you mention: perhaps they're too busy fending off stealth attacks and maintaining the defenses in the wake of stealth attacks. Being a Utility guy is hard, as you know, and keeping an eye on the chat all the time while you're actively rebuilding turrets and mines that just keep getting blown up can slip one's mind. Utils often have more urgent matters to take care of than to "make you personal gifts".

All in all, the good thing about betas is we can change things, and the entire point is to see how a certain addition fares in a wide playtest other than a select few. Thanks for being above 90% of the community and actually giving direct feedback here instead of ranting in the ingame chat. It's much more useful to us.

EDIT: Turns out that in the last stable public release, harvesters took 1.5x damage from fire. For some reason they now take 2x. That could be the cause of your concern and personally, I disagree with that change myself. Thanks Eric.


Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:31 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:04 pm
Posts: 645
Location: Serbia
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
All the ways you could get the fireproof armor before pretty much derailed the poor flamethrower guy. And anything that caused flames. Because, y'know, fire is meant to burn. It made me "speechless" (but ok I recovered now LOLOLOLOL) after seeing that 90% of players could walk right through a firestorm without being hurt at all. Flames were so useless before. And now you don't like the fact that we made a gun actually useful. The flames spawned by rockets, mass driver shells, and other explosive projectiles are not spawned a lot, and are pretty easy to evade.

As for the massdriver jump thing, if I am correct, it speeds up harvesting, and harvesters are slow for a reason. Any type of boosted harvesting will make the team drown in money more quickly, which is one of our major economy issues. And I agree that massdriver is useless too. It has been derailing the rocket launcher for a very good while. Until now, when rockets are actually useful, and I've yet to see complaints about that.


Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:34 am
Profile

Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:34 pm
Posts: 1228
Location: Finland
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Medicris wrote:
I do say the strengths and weaknesses of each are exaggerated a bit, but I had no say in that, so whatever.

I actually don't remember you saying this..

Quote:
As for fire itself, I do agree that it's all too common around the battlefield in places that don't even make sense (why does plasma cannon leave fluorescent electrical "fire" instead of laser damage plasma decays?) and that reducing the sheer amount of fire everywhere due to explosions would help out an issue such as this. It would also reduce the amount of FPS and ear rape from so much fire burning at the same time. Rocket launchers and mech rockets certainly don't require fire decays, while the artillery cannon is iffy. The rest seem fine to make fire, if only for a second or two after explosion as the explosion's heat dissipates.

This needs to be brought up when we have the team assembled on IRC again.

Quote:
Personally, I don't think it'd hurt to make the tiberium rifle more useful to make chemproof worthy.

The projectile speed of the tiberium rifle was increased. I hear it kills flamer dudes well now.

Quote:
The making of fireproof armor in spawn being overwritten by the class you choose was an honest oversight and Dusk has already fixed it.

An oversight it was. I had assumed that the fireproof was always given after you got the class, whoops. I haven't gotten to fixing it yet, though.

Quote:
Just be happy you even have a gun to shoot back with, CNC harvesters sure don't. Escort them and protect their grounds in the name of teamwork. I'd still rather have the artillery just not spawn fire (its damage is already pretty damn good).

I'd like to point out that harvesters in general do less damage than most classes do - something that was in place even before I became a developer.

Quote:
All in all, the good thing about betas is we can change things, and the entire point is to see how a certain addition fares in a wide playtest other than a select few. Thanks for being above 90% of the community and actually giving direct feedback here instead of ranting in the ingame chat. It's much more useful to us.

Indeed. The very point of the beta testing is to see how well the new systems play in game. You can't really advance in development without making experimental changes sometimes. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - and only beta testing can tell whether it does and if it doesn't, what's broken with it.

Quote:
EDIT: Turns out that in the last stable public release, harvesters took 1.5x damage from fire. For some reason they now take 2x. That could be the cause of your concern and personally, I disagree with that change myself. Thanks Eric.

I was hoping to polarize the damage types further to increase the effectiveness of certain counters as well as making people die easier. Easier killing == lesser skill curve. Again I don't recall anybody saying anything against 2x fire vulnerability on chemical proof, so I kept it.

Now for an idea of my own I mentioned on IRC a few times: what if the armor changers (fireproof, crate resistance) would actually went into inventory? When you activate the armor, it'd take a few seconds to "dress" it, perhaps even freezing you as it's not really desirable to have players suddenly change armor in battle to counter the enemy's weapon. Or is it? I'd believe in any case that such a system would add a few more tactics regarding armors and would fix off any "class ruining" mentioned here, as well as fixing the bugs related to utility fireproofs given in spawn room.


Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:50 am
Profile WWW

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:03 pm
Posts: 1065
Location: British Columbia
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Nah, the only reason I think it's iffy to have most explosives spawning large amounts of fire is that it makes such weapons quite effective against both laser and chemical classes since they have both explosive and fire damagetypes.

But in that writing about excess fire I forgot that fire afterburn doesn't kill enemies anymore, so I suppose it's not all bad. Eric tested, and a single flamethrower puff actually nearly kills a harvester :v That is what I meant by the exaggerated polarization, though I'm not really against the rest. Maybe instead of 60% resistance to your own type and 160% total damage from your class's weakness (and that's like grade 2 armor), it could be toned down to 50%/150% or even 40%/140% which could be tested in experimental patches. Good thing is, these are much easier things to edit with the standardized system than beforehand.


Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:33 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:49 am
Posts: 46
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Medicris wrote:
Sup TeaTime.
[...]
Say what you wish about the armor system, though its effectiveness in countering certain classes over others and encouraging class diversity to effectively support other teammates's weaknesses and simplifying over 50 different armor types and upgrades previously into a streamlined system is a step up from before. It discourages "lone wolf" play because a single player without support can be taken care of with the proper counter. A varied-class group is much harder to take down. I do say the strengths and weaknesses of each are exaggerated a bit, but I had no say in that, so whatever.

Sup Medic ;)
I wasn't criticizing this aspect. Also, I think the removal of power up cache is actually a good idea. Less stuff for trolls to destroy, so the gameplay is less affected. Overall the update is good, and anybody can feel the work in it.

Medicris wrote:
(why does plasma cannon leave fluorescent electrical "fire" instead of laser damage plasma decays?)

Plasma are condensed particles charged with electricity, heated at a very high temperature, then thrown. I think it's like a local mini nuclear attack. It really has nothing to do with laser stuffs. But maybe like Shock Rifle, the plasma/electrical decays could be assimilated :S


Medicris wrote:
and that reducing the sheer amount of fire everywhere due to explosions would help out an issue such as this. It would also reduce the amount of FPS and ear rape from so much fire burning at the same time.

But fire is fun ? It's part of the game to see gigantic explosions and flaming bodies starting to run everywhere ... Each time I showed AOW to friends, they started telling the graphism sucked, then when we went into this kind of scene, they were just delighted and wanted to play.
AOW present a dangerous and violent environnement, of war. It's not like a duel or a deathmatch, and fire everywhere maintain that feeling of intensity for me. Its part of the ambiance that defines this game ...
Running into fire with fireproof gives a delicious sensation, as well as running into it without makes you feel very powerless.


Medicris wrote:
Personally, I don't think it'd hurt to make the tiberium rifle more useful to make chemproof worthy.

Oh for sure, it wouldn't hurt (or would it, rather ? lol)
Chemicals aspects are a bit less present in a game setting where tiberium is now predominant in the world. If ever the class selection system were to be changed, I'd be for more tiberium harming stuff. Chemical proof would be more interesting then.


Medicris wrote:
Massdriver jumping is all fine and dandy. It's handy for all classes, save for chemical based ones that are weak to fire. If artillery cannons didn't spawn fire, that'd fix that. [...] I'd still rather have the artillery just not spawn fire (its damage is already pretty damn good).

For sure I'd be advantaged as a massdriver jumper, but it looks like a quick fix for a weapon that always tradionnally spawned fire. I think maybe it would remove some of its originality. Can't really say.

Medicris wrote:
As for those terrible, selfish Utility Guys you mention: perhaps they're too busy fending off stealth attacks and maintaining the defenses in the wake of stealth attacks. Being a Utility guy is hard, as you know, and keeping an eye on the chat all the time while you're actively rebuilding turrets and mines that just keep getting blown up can slip one's mind. Utils often have more urgent matters to take care of than to "make you personal gifts".

I'm not like that ... If I see the utility is overwhelmed, often, I start helping him. I wasn't saying it like that. Some player still do, but it tends to become rarer. When I'm utility, I always accept this request. I'm aware this will help the team win. If I'm too busy, I tell them to wait a bit. If I don't have cash for it, I say it too. And it always fix the problem, as 1 minute later, the guy is always fireproofed (except if the refinery is down)


Konda' wrote:
All the ways you could get the fireproof armor before pretty much derailed the poor flamethrower guy. And anything that caused flames. Because, y'know, fire is meant to burn.

The problem I think comes from the invulnerabilty. For fireproof and chemproof, they just remove damages, as opposite with Flak Jacket, Explosive -resistance-, Laser -resistance-, which lower them.
Fire and Chems are pretty "Black and White", binary elementals. It's either you die quickly from them or you suffer from nothing. I'm not saying yet this should be changed ... I'm saying it's not like Explosive and Laser. It's more extreme.
What if pure chem classes were the only ones to get pure chem immunity ? Same for fire classes ?
After all, its a bit like a medic regen, or a stealth cloak : A native class attribute.
Why not change the typical non native fire armor into a high resistance, and occasionally grant the player a full immunity ? (from crates or other power up sources) That would just keep the full immunity for native classes.
I don't know, I really can't say.


Konda' wrote:
It made me "speechless" (but ok I recovered now LOLOLOLOL) after seeing that 90% of players could walk right through a firestorm without being hurt at all. Flames were so useless before. And now you don't like the fact that we made a gun actually useful. The flames spawned by rockets, mass driver shells, and other explosive projectiles are not spawned a lot, and are pretty easy to evade.

You exagerate, 90% only happens when you have a totally devoted utility constantly spawning fireproof in spawn. Doesn't happen that often, really ... And that takes a player slot, and devotion, lol.
In the old version, you have to THINK to get fireproof to be like that. To plan something and have the way. Not as many players think that way ... Usually they rush into action, that's why I think you exagerate here.

To either support or infirm your comment (see it for yourself, I'm just being honest), I'll tell how I react in an example :
As soon as there is someone in my team who says "Titan incoming", if I have the occasion (and the cash ! 650$+1500$+the new class to buy), I go immediately pick a fireproof and a plasma cannon. A Titan's way of removing infantry is using his huge flamethrowers. You can dodge his rockets with sufficient distance and speed. Usually this works, if the Titan is not supported with infantry ;) It goes down within seconds.
Is it right or wrong ? I don't know. It's just the optimal way to get a Titan down at the moment.


Konda' wrote:
As for the massdriver jump thing, if I am correct, it speeds up harvesting, and harvesters are slow for a reason. Any type of boosted harvesting will make the team drown in money more quickly, which is one of our major economy issues. And I agree that massdriver is useless too. It has been derailing the rocket launcher for a very good while. Until now, when rockets are actually useful, and I've yet to see complaints about that.

What can I say ... :(
We've got like a radically different point of view on that matter, so I won't argue. I just prefer to have fun than worrying about the ingame economy, which I think is fine as it provides the way to buy classes to die or to kill with.

Dusk wrote:
Now for an idea of my own I mentioned on IRC a few times: what if the armor changers (fireproof, crate resistance) would actually went into inventory? When you activate the armor, it'd take a few seconds to "dress" it, perhaps even freezing you as it's not really desirable to have players suddenly change armor in battle to counter the enemy's weapon. Or is it? I'd believe in any case that such a system would add a few more tactics regarding armors and would fix off any "class ruining" mentioned here, as well as fixing the bugs related to utility fireproofs given in spawn room.

Just a great idea, more and more things that aren't actually weapons related (beacons, self-heal, C4, Health Regens ...) go into the inventory system, and that just speeds up gameplay and make it richer and better organized. This is just the way it should go ... It can only enrich the game.
A few seconds in my opinion is still a lot, lol. Freezing while changing also looks like hard on the player too. Maybe two seconds without freezing ? With an animation on the player to break the stealth effect, and warn the enemy the player is actually changing something.

Crates become more and more undesirable. It's ok its random like a Russian roulette, but now, players start more and more to avoid them. I think being given inventory items from them is a good idea in general, not only for armors. Putting armors inside the inventory would reduce the random aspect of crates, enhance the strategy with what you are offered (exactly like the guardian crate effect : it's being put in your inventory rather than taking immediate effect now), and, of course, finally, it would prevent class wrecking.


Thank you for not flaming me and having taken the time to read, even if you disagree. I'm really happy it goes this way.


edit :
Medicris wrote:
Nah, the only reason I think it's iffy to have most explosives spawning large amounts of fire is that it makes such weapons quite effective against both laser and chemical classes since they have both explosive and fire damagetypes.

Yeah, but lasers are instant. Explosive projectiles are slow and/or delayed ... But yes .... the fire stays.


Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:24 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:08 pm
Posts: 250
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Okay, (1) I don't really have a say in how development proceeds, and (2) I'm not too vexed about it because I only play AOW once in a blue moon, but...

I'm pretty certain that in the vast majority of sci-fi settings, plasma weapons do damage because they are SUPERHEATED, not because they are electrically charged. But who cares about "sci-fi" realism, (or consistency).

If I ever actually (first start and then) finish the 9000 projects that I have, then I will give you an ACS menu where you can mix and match armor/weapons/speed/health/powerups/skills at a price.


Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:00 am
Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:03 pm
Posts: 1065
Location: British Columbia
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
TT wrote:
Plasma are condensed particles charged with electricity, heated at a very high temperature, then thrown. I think it's like a local mini nuclear attack. It really has nothing to do with laser stuffs. But maybe like Shock Rifle, the plasma/electrical decays could be assimilated :S

Well, dunno your point because well, laser weapons do inflict damage by using superheated ions to pretty much melt them. It's not like they electrocute you when you get shot besides the shock rifle (which is only laser for convenience).

It's pretty obvious the plasma cannon "fire" isn't a traditional fuel-burning oxidating fire, it's just the leftover superheated plasma being released into the air. So it's more or less just like how the plasma rifle does damage, only on a giant scale. So it's more or less plasma damage. Which translates to laser in AOW.

Also, as for the topic of what I said about fire weapons:

I wrote:
But in that writing about excess fire I forgot that fire afterburn doesn't kill enemies anymore, so I suppose it's not all bad.


In other words, I'm more or less fine with it and it always has been a feature of the landscape.

TT wrote:
I'm not like that ... If I see the utility is overwhelmed, often, I start helping him. I wasn't saying it like that. Some player still do, but it tends to become rarer. When I'm utility, I always accept this request. I'm aware this will help the team win. If I'm too busy, I tell them to wait a bit. If I don't have cash for it, I say it too.

That's good. Because all too often I see some guy yelling in teamchat at the Utility guy for fireproof for 5 minutes striaght while the base is under siege and the poor guy doesn't even have enough time to say he can't and that he's busy. It gets to ridiculous points.


Last edited by atac on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:14 am
Profile

Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:34 pm
Posts: 1228
Location: Finland
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Qent wrote:
Okay, (1) I don't really have a say in how development proceeds, and (2) I'm not too vexed about it because I only play AOW once in a blue moon, but...

I'm pretty certain that in the vast majority of sci-fi settings, plasma weapons do damage because they are SUPERHEATED, not because they are electrically charged. But who cares about "sci-fi" realism, (or consistency).

If I ever actually (first start and then) finish the 9000 projects that I have, then I will give you an ACS menu where you can mix and match armor/weapons/speed/health/powerups/skills at a price.

Do we want that? I made an attempt on one which only fell down because I figured it'd make too big a change at once. The first step is to convert the existing spawn room to a menu, which is on my todo list.


Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:14 am
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:49 am
Posts: 46
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Yeah got your point Medic.

If it went straight into realism, everything would cause fire in the end.
Even lasers (light based weapons), even Shock Rifle (electricity based weapon).

In fact it seems it depends on the surface the weapon hits.
If the surface is laser resistant, and not combustible, it couldn't cause fire IMHO.
As for the Shock Rifle, I don't know, I think It would need some kind of isolation, lol.
Explosive stuffs don't necessarily need to cause fire, but usually they do because there is some combustible added to it.
Chemical weapons could also cause fire, if there is a chemical reaction..... lol

Plasma stuff are not at all light based, but particle based, so they are already burning matter in a way. Closer to the Firethrower than lasers. So they doesn't depend on the surface they hit to cause fire. To would be resistant to them, you would already have to be resistant to heat/flames.

So for the sake of realism :

Fire elemental : (slow projectiles, already burning)
  • Firethrower
  • Plasma gun
  • Plasma cannon
  • and various exposition to heat/fire sources

Explosive elemental : (depends on what is included inside to cause fire)
  • Artillery canon (incorrectly named Massdriver)
  • Bazooka
  • Grenade launcher
  • Grenades
  • C4 / Remote C4
  • Land mines
  • various rockets, from Mechs to Turrets

Chemical elemental : (needs a chemical reaction to cause fire - knowing that Tiberium eats in priority everything carbon based)
  • T-CAL Tiberium Autorifle
  • Chemical Sprayer
  • and various Tiberium radiations

Laser elemental : (Light based, needs the surface to be laser resistant in order not to cause fire)
  • Laser rifle/Stealth Rifle
  • Laser Chaingun

Electricity Elemental : (needs isolation in order not to take damage, and everything flammable can also start to burn)
  • Shock Rifle

Piercing elemental : (do not cause fire, only does piercing damage - though piercing instable matter containers such as barrels could cause fire)
  • Handgun
  • Rifle
  • Sniper Rifle
  • Shotgun / Double Shotgun
  • Sub Machine Gun
  • Machine Gun
  • Gatling gun / Jumpjet Gatling gun
  • Railgun (in fact a non burning projectile thrown at a very high speed, incorrectly named Gauss rifle)
  • various Turrets

Contendant Elemental : (could be mixed with explosive ?)
  • Punches/Unarmed

Tearing/Cutting Elemental : (no fire)
  • Knife
  • Chainsaw
  • Razor Wires

WTF elemental :
  • Repair guns
  • Bombsquad gun
  • Medic gun
  • Timegun effects
  • Repair Turrets

And if ever anyone wants to implement this, this can be simplified.
No need to build 9000 types of armors also.
A carbon based bullet proofed vest (built to keep speed) is obviously vulnerable to Tiberium radiations.
Fire proofed suits can be vulnerable to a lot of things.
Antiradiation suits too.
Reinforced explosive resistant armors, could be both vulnerable to fire and radiations ...


Last edited by Joe on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:20 am
Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:03 pm
Posts: 1065
Location: British Columbia
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Wasn't really going for realism, just logic. Leftover plasma is still plasma, lol. This is AOW that has rocket boot minigunners and walking tanks with lightning cannons, it's not supposed to be hyperrealistic. Even still basic logic is a factor. Not that it's a game breaking issue in the first place, it's just an interesting point.

Now, about that completely new armour rewrite. What are the benefits over the longstanding system, gameplay wise?

By the way, a coilgun/gauss gun isn't to be confused with a railgun. Just from seeing the coils around the barrel (at least, the original one before Blox redrew it) is a pretty clear indicator of that. The two names are usually used interchangably in the gaming world anyway, so it doesn't need a correction either way.


Last edited by atac on Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:40 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:49 am
Posts: 46
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
My last post wasn't really a suggestion ;)
Rather a listing for the sake of realism.
I'm for fun not realism. (what would I become if I did a realistic mass driver jump ? :lol: )


Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:43 am
Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:03 pm
Posts: 1065
Location: British Columbia
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Lol, yeah really.

Anyway we're going offtopic, what can we do in the meantime to help the balance system out?

Also
TTime wrote:
Crates become more and more undesirable. It's ok its random like a Russian roulette, but now, players start more and more to avoid them."

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=852 If you feel like expanding on that, poot that there if you like.

Dusk wrote:
Medicris wrote:
I do say the strengths and weaknesses of each are exaggerated a bit, but I had no say in that, so whatever.

I actually don't remember you saying this...


I was actually like away for all of the testing sessions due to work, school and partying hard on the side.

Plus timezones are a bitch. I'll apologize, but it's true I haven't really seen any real gameplay with the new system so these findings I see with the highly polarized armours are new. By the way, after thinking about it for a little while I'm fine with the new armour style, even if beta.

Now I'm not familiar with the math used, but as a highly ranked average mid/late game player, how much immunity do you usually get to your class's weakness if say, you choose a gauss rifleman? How extreme does the laser resistance/explosive vulnerability go? For standard players, I'd say go no more than 50 armour for your class's resistance, and no lower than -50% armour to your class's weakness.

But no really, I really like the squad-encouraging aspect of it, but I'd like it to at least make each fight not completely decided by the damagetypes: only enough to give a good edge on them. This is just me though.


Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:35 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:04 pm
Posts: 645
Location: Serbia
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Medicris wrote:
but I'd like it to at least make each fight not completely decided by the damagetypes: only enough to give a good edge on them. This is just me though.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only classes that have problems with flames are chem classes and vice versa. I don't know why, but flames are being represented as instakill projectiles.


Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:00 pm
Profile

Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:03 pm
Posts: 1065
Location: British Columbia
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
We've kind of moved past the fire debate. But now that every class/element has a very prominent duality to them like chem and fire do, it's important to get the numbers right so no big gamebreakers happen.

P.S. A single flamethrower puff takes a harvester down to like 20 hp after the afterburn is done. Rofl. Maybe it should just get normal chemproof armour.


Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:13 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:04 pm
Posts: 645
Location: Serbia
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
This should have been noticed back when Dusk was adding the new armor system as a feature suggestion, but I guess we couldn't really do the maths with so much classes, especially when we just wanted to get rid of the old one.
Anyway, I instakilled thetis with one homing rocket. The explosion did a lot of damage, and the fire finished him. Whatever that class was, it needs a revision. (I'm not too sure, but he could have had lower HP or something, we need to ask him)
Although, we need to be careful about revisions. I don't want tanks again.


Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:17 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:49 am
Posts: 46
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Konda' wrote:
Medicris wrote:
but I'd like it to at least make each fight not completely decided by the damagetypes: only enough to give a good edge on them. This is just me though.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only classes that have problems with flames are chem classes and vice versa. I don't know why, but flames are being represented as instakill projectiles.

Fire is not instakill, only very present. Not that much of a problem if there is a fireproof available (you can make the choice to get it)
Also, the opposition between Fire and Chems elemental seems to me a bit too extreme sometimes. It's either immunity, or very quick death for those classes, maybe because of the decays. It's totally not like Explosive vs Laser I mean.


Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:18 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:04 pm
Posts: 645
Location: Serbia
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Fire may be present, but the extra projectiles that produce fire do not procude fire on a large radius. In fact, the radius of fire production by projectiles is 32 max. Only C4 produces a lot of fire, but C4s are not seen as often as other projectiles.
EDIT: Speaking of fire vs chem, I agree with you. I was once a flamethrower guy and someone managed to get me from full hp to around 20 hp with 2 shots of the tiberium autorifle. If it was chemsprayer vs flamethrower that caused this much damage to both classes only, it could be accepted, because both weapons don't have a far range and aren't that hard to dodge. But other chemical variants such as the tiberium autorifle are a problem. Especially now that the projectiles are faster than before.


Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:20 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:08 pm
Posts: 250
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Dusk wrote:
Qent wrote:
I will give you an ACS menu where you can mix and match armor/weapons/speed/health/powerups/skills at a price.
Do we want that?
Yeah, lol. And for mechs, too. It could probably use something like the cost formula from SMAC.


Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:12 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:49 am
Posts: 46
Post Re: New armor system looks unbalanced and destructive
Konda' wrote:
Fire may be present, but the extra projectiles that produce fire do not procude fire on a large radius. In fact, the radius of fire production by projectiles is 32 max. Only C4 produces a lot of fire, but C4s are not seen as often as other projectiles.

Yes. I agree ... but
Imagine you're a blue harvester, on AOW02. You're right in the tiberium field. An assault against midfield blue defender is led by red attackers (Titan on one side, Mass driver + Infantry on the other one).
Both sides of field are covered with fire (no C4 involved), meaning you are trapped in the field.
If you wait before crossing the fire, bam, a SSG guy just shot you.
Now, I agree this situation should happen. And it does very often. This is not a flaw, this is the game. It HAS to happen in order to make harvesting risky. So nothing wrong here.
That was just to illustrate you can be surrounded by fire, and can't move, without involving C4. ;)


Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:14 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.