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Utility Guy 
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Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:34 pm
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Post Re: Utility Guy
Stalin wrote:
Depends on how much your talking for punishment.

Obviously, enough for stopping people from destroying their own turrets... if you're afraid of the punishment, go practice some turret placement in an offline "game" so you won't screw up.


Thu May 06, 2010 9:10 am
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Post Re: Utility Guy
"NOT DIRECTLY ABOUT UTILITY GUY"
i think the people who kill turrets should be rewardeed too
maybe 25 xp per turret?


Thu May 06, 2010 12:14 pm
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Post Re: Utility Guy
ya that's what I was thinking to darkslayer a deconstruction gun for the utility guy and the only turrets that it can deconstruct are his/her own.


Thu May 06, 2010 3:13 pm
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Post Re: Utility Guy
Lenin wrote:
ya that's what I was thinking to darkslayer a deconstruction gun for the utility guy and the only turrets that it can deconstruct are his/her own.
Utility guy just ragequit the game. Now what? I like the idea of a deconstruction gun though. Repair gun with green colours maybe? Deconstruction results in getting your money back that you just spent on the turret maybe? I don't know much scripting but that might be a little hard.

leehiufugn911 wrote:
"NOT DIRECTLY ABOUT UTILITY GUY"
i think the people who kill turrets should be rewardeed too
maybe 25 xp per turret?
Good idea but depends on the turret. Some would be worth more than others obviously.

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Thu May 06, 2010 3:33 pm
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Post Re: Utility Guy
Hmm... such a deconstruction gun sounds pretty difficult to code. What I can think off my head is that we'd need 32 different deconstruction guns, with the script handing a deconstruction gun based on player number, each having its own damagetype. Then we'd need 32 (players) * 2 (teams) + 2 (immune) = 66 different variants of every single turret and have each be immune to every deconstruction gun except the one that created it. Additionally, if the player who made the turret goes to spectate or disconnects, the turret morphs itself into the immune variant.

Now just go and convince the devs to make this kind of system... :)


Thu May 06, 2010 3:47 pm
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Post Re: Utility Guy
1 Universal deconstruction gun. You can deconstruct any turret with it, enemy or friendly. Maybe get exp for dismantling enemy turrets. Obviously you don't drop this gun either.

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Thu May 06, 2010 3:56 pm
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Post Re: Utility Guy
But what about the exploit then? Util guys will just go around and deconstruct their own base turrets to make their own so that they can get cash and experience.


Thu May 06, 2010 4:45 pm
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Post Re: Utility Guy
That crap aside, I'm saying I like that idea of deconstruction in general.

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Thu May 06, 2010 4:57 pm
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Post Re: Utility Guy
see stalin not so fun when people are being really really picky is it? :P I think we can all agree on one thing, utility guy needs a reward lets start from there and see what we can get, would be nice if we had some admins responding on what they can or can't do?:S


Fri May 07, 2010 1:05 am
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Post Re: Utility Guy
For now, it would seem like a good idea for Utility Guys to gain XP from Mines.


Fri May 07, 2010 1:49 am
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Post Re: Utility Guy
Razor wires already award the kill if you're lucky enough to get one with them but you don't see people destroying each other's wires for the exp. Utility guys already get substantial amounts of exp for repairing the base as it is. You wont get up to commando rank but you wont be sitting on 100hp for long after some damage is done. You get a small amount of exp for every 4 c4s you disarm as well. Ontop of that, if you play utility as a base infiltrator, you'd be surprised at how much exp you can gain and how quickly.

What if the other team isn't attacking the base? Base crasher. You're guaranteed it at least once a match. It's more than a rank up if you're first on the scene and really you should be.

I've reached commando rank from base infiltration and repairing the base on a few occasions playing soley utility guy.

IMHO, you don't need any more rewards anymore since the exp boost for repairing. If you're the active utility guy purely defending you get enough exp from being first to repair everything. If you want after game recognition, exp wont do it. You'll still be sitting with a low frag count. Sometimes I land up with low frags and 200 points for destroying the base on my own but still no one's going to pat me on the back and thank me for an awesome job. I had the fun of doing it, that's the reward. Awarding frags for mines/fake crates/turrets is almost a false impression of your "skill" as it were too; you didn't directly kill anyone. It would probably get some grumbles from players who prefer to play offence.

Utility guy wont be appealing to people who don't want to make defences. If you up the reward too much, you're attracting the wrong people to do the job, foiling your original proposal.

Really, I don't want some after game trophy to appear saying I was the utility guy all match long so I better get your respect. What sort of message is that? Play utility or you're a loser? It's a vital role, but not the only vital role. Assign someone to be utility guy if someone's already said they'll do it and that's that. If you're in the base all the time, what would you need bundles of exp for? Your defences take health off of anyone getting in if you can do utility even half decently so you're on even footing if you see anyone.

I'm not super pro at AOW, yet I can get a lot of exp from utility as it is, and I'm usually high on the leaderboard due to points rather than frags. I don't get special regonition for it, and I don't see the need for it. The class attracted me without special perks and awards and I'm still playing utility because it appeals to me. I don't feel the need to up the exp or rewards at all. It's a versatile class and your team can see you've been putting up the defences. If they didn't appreciate you before super special perks so you show higher on the leaderboard, why would they if you got them? Doesn't do much but unbalance the exp gain compared to other classes.

It kinda sounds like you're after bragging rights rather than recognition. Blunt, yeah, but that's how we do it here. Doesn't matter if my name shows up on people's screens when they trip my mines or get some rockets follow them halfway accross the map just to kill them. It's going to be ignored anyway, and if anything you'll be the victim of rage for being that "turret spammer"/"mine noob". Catch my drift?

Hoo boy. Long post is long. Oi, I need some lessons in how to post less!


Sat May 08, 2010 12:32 am
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Post Re: Utility Guy
Ok Lefty, here's how it goes. Firstly, you said utility guy gains experience from repairing, ok cool that's not what we're discussing, repair guy gets experience for repairing too. What we're trying to get at is, if a base has no damage it's most likely because the utility guy has done a great job at putting up defences and defending the base in general. That is where we are trying to get the reward to come from. Setting up turrets, mines, sandbags, razor wire, you know....defences. Furthermore, I don't know what you're getting at with base crasher at all so im just goign to dismiss that point outright since its invalid and it makes no sense. Also, base infiltration eh? that's great, but... the main purpose of utility guy is defence. Setting up and maintaining defences because if you tell your teammates heyyy I'll be utility guy, they trust that you will be defending the base, not infirtrating the enemy base. While you are infiltrating the enemy base and gaining experience for yourself you are letting your team down by leaving your base wiiiiiiiiiiiide open to enemy attacks, not a good idea to bring infiltrating a base into the utility guy class. So once again, utility guy's primary focus is defence, everything else is secondary. Now, to adress your point on getting frags and experience for placing, crates, turrets, mines being a false impression of skill. I do not understand how you could possibly come to that conclusion, utility guy is one of the most strategic classes in the game. Not everyone places turrets mines and fake crates with the same efficiency and that's a fact. I've seen people placing turrets really closely together making them very easy to destroy, I've seen people placing turrets behind walls that block the turrets from hitting any enemies, I'm sure there are many AOW players that could share some funny utility guy fails. Therefore, utility guy does require skill and that skill should be rewarded. Finally, and this is where it gets hilarious...I don't recall anyone in the thread including myself requesting a special trophy at the end of the game for utility guy, so I don't know where you got that from...Also, for your personall attack towards me, (which is the hilarious part) if you played AOW enough or ask anyone who knows me you will know, that I have never ever ever bragged in-game nor will I ever do so. I am a humble player and always look to make my team win, that's why i like being utility guy. Also, reckognition was never mentioned, i said reward (wrong "r" word) reward as in the exact way every other class in the game gets rewarded, from rifleman, to time-cop all classes get rewarded for what they do, however utility guy does not, and if you carefully read the thread about what we were trying to get the utility guy to get reward for you wouldn't have made this post. Because it's not fair when you have someone that worked his/her ass off to keep the base defences going and ticket mode comes around, and they have to fight with 100 health while everyone else has 120+ because they've been killing people. Pretty sure utility guy deserves more experience more money and more health to reflect the work he/ she put into this game. SOOOOO in conclusion that was the longest post i have ever written but I couldn't help myself after reading your post.

Thank you,

Lenin


Sat May 08, 2010 11:07 pm
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Post Re: Utility Guy
/wall of text; needs more paragraph breaks, it is killing my eyes to read this.

Ok Lenin.

Base crasher happens pretty often. It is plain to see what Lefty is striving to say. If no one is kicking around to repair, easy money and experience.

Utility is sometimes an awesome offense, bringing fire proofs and guns to the front lines, turrets in enemy base; what's wrong with that?

What's this talk about trophies? He was speaking figuratively. This recognition of which he speaks is essentially what this is all about; recognizing utility guy needs rewards. Personal attacks? I fail to see your name mentioned anywhere in Lefty's post, which made a lot of sense to me anyway.

Stalin

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Sun May 09, 2010 12:23 am
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Post Re: Utility Guy
My post was countering the entire thread so far, hence the length and sporadic content. It wasn't directed purely at yourself Stalin.

Repair exp is not what we're discussing directly, but I mean that exp is there already for utility guys. If the base is that well defended, odds are, it's not just the utility guy who played a part anyway. Utility alone can not stand up to an entire team. You need a team to back you up so I don't see why you should get special rewards or extra exp ontop of what you can get already. I think you're overstating their role a little.

If I lay mines now and they give me no exp, why do I do it? Because utility guy is a fun role for me. I honestly don't see the need to add exp ontop of it because I can get enough. If you up the exp available, you'll have the wrong people laying the mines and turrets just for the exp. Here's what I'd do if we got exp for defence kills: use gunman until $650. Go utility guy and make as many mines, turrets and fake crates as possible. Resign. Get the best class I can afford and go and fight whilst the defences are all there. Gain exp from fighting (hopefully) whilst I watch obituaries and my exp going up from the defences. My exp gain potential would be higher than any other class could possibly contend for. I'd simply go back and remake defences for even more exp. You're proposing an unbalancing of the game.

Heh, well, that's what I'd do if I wasn't a utility guy nerb. For me specifically, I'd go util and stay util. I'd go outfield and fight whilst the defences are standing and check back every few minutes and replace anything. But still, the potential for exp gain is a lot higher than other classes doing it this way.

You're turning utility guy from a class where you must be creative to get frags, into a noob class where you get your exp from mines and turrets and you never even have to leave the base to do it. That doesn't appeal to me, but you can bet that when you're trying to play utility guy you'll soon find the mine, turret and fake crate resources are gone a lot sooner than they would be usually, because it's easy exp. I don't see people taking down your defences to lay their own over them, but I see utility having a tougher time managing resources if you give exp for the kills because more people will lay them and leave. Surely that's the opposite effect of encouraging strategic use of utility guy for defence?

I say noob class as in, others would see it as a noob way to get kills if you award them for it. It's less difficult than fighting yourself, that I'm sure you can agree with and it was something I addressed in my first post, albiet not that well if it was taken the wrong way. It's not less difficult than fighting yourself to lay defences exceptionally well, but even if they're laid badly, you'll still get some kills for it. In terms of risk to reward, you have almost no risk, but high reward under your proposal. I don't mean that utility is a noob class itself; it's possibly the most difficult to play well, but it's the one I play almost exclusively so I do take it to heart a little when people knock it.

Annoyingly you're under scrutiny the most because your efforts are more visible. What I meant before was that if you fragged someone with mines/turrets, it would show in obituaries who laid them, like it does with razor wires now. You're told who placed them. Following my reasoning for calling it a noob class from "other" player's perspectives, you'd be more at risk from angry players flaming you for killing them with your defences. You see it now even if they know it was you who did it. It's a small reason to argue against your proposal, but it adds to it.

Base crasher from crates damages the base. Therefore it is an opportunity for you to gain exp even if you have "perfect defence". Exp is not impossible to gain even if you stay in the base the entire match and never see anyone trying to get in. One base crasher, and you're not on 100hp anymore, guaranteed. It doesn't matter if others are repairing too, you should be the first one there repairing and how often do you see more than two people besides yourself repairing after a base crasher? I don't see it often at all. We share buildings out and I can rank twice at times from one crasher or more if I'm low ranked and no one but me is repairing. I don't think it's a useless point at all. I look forwards to base crasher out of ticket mode if I'm utility because it's a rank up for no effort.

I really hated it when someone said this to me when I was making the same argument you were before the exp boost for repairing: sniper class is for sniping but people use the invis to sneak into bases, time cop is for sniping but some people use the dash to get through defences to c4 a base, massdrivers are anti-mech weapons but people use them to rocketjump, adv. tiberium harvesters are for harvesting but people use it for the armour and chem proof and go on offence alone. The only limitation of a class is the user's creativity and utility guy allows for a lot of creative uses. I don't stay in the base, because when I've used every resource available to me to protect the base, I'm not going to sit around and wait for people to try to get in. I'm attacking, and then some. If you've done a good job, no one's getting in for some time, so I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to. C4 refill packs and some stealthy movements allow you take down buildings faster and quiter for less money than ion/nuke strikes ever could. You're an asset to your team not only in defence, but in offence and you can risk 3 minutes trying to get into a base if your team and defences are reliable.

I'm not meaning to try to belittle you in any way, but here's a few things I've picked up for gaining exp. Try using the rifle to snipe players that are taking hits from LRM turrets. Chase down enemies trying to self heal after walking into one of your mines; it's free exp. Make use of your machine gun in close quarters combat within the base because enemies will be hurt already from your defences so you should have the advantage; you know where your defences are, you can get to the medkits first, team support is closer and you have a quick escape through the terminals. When you have a base crasher, go to a building no one else is repairing yet and you'll get more faster. If you can afford it and you're not under attack, resign and go advanced repairman for even more exp. Make use of the altfire on the machinegun; snipe at people being shot at by others with it. Also use it to get the first few hits before they get close or notice you then switch to normal fire when they're closer. You're a slow class, so use whatever you can for a boost or advantage. I like to rocketjump and use longer range and surprise attacks, but there are other options to counter your speed. Your defences and creative potential make up for anything you lack as a class.

Trust your team a little more. Just because the utility guy is gone doesn't mean the defences are. It's not wide open if you've done a good job before you leave. The defences you placed are what's important, not you invididually because you're an inferior combat class. You can leave a secure base for a few minutes to assist the team on the field and you might get a frag or two out there. If you never leave the base, you wont know the team's situation. Place some turrets at the front line for supporting fire, place some super caches by the sniper so they can stay sniping for longer. Back your team up, don't just lay defences then mill around waiting for someone to try to get in. You're a lot more useful than that.

I wouldn't overlook using utility guy offensively. On the contrary, they're the best class possible to get into the enemy's base. You can stake out a building, lay traps, c4 buildings very, very quickly and you can assist your team through many options if they're attacking. Demo expert has nothing on utility guy's offensive power. I'd say no classes compare to utility guy's potential for base offence. You would be surprised at how fast the exp rolls in using utility this way. Like I said, I've been commando rank before just playing utility guy the whole match, and I was laying defences and caring for the base as well as attacking.

I was trying to be modest and not sound like a jerk for thinking my way is the right way, but here's the scoop since I'm incapable of conveying tone well; when I play utility, I lay the defences then leave because that's it, all resources are used and I'm wasting space sitting in the base at that point. If someone wants to sit around in the base and purely maintain then really that's god awesome for me because it means I don't have to and the base will be secure twice as fast. I'll use every trick up my sleeve to sneak across the map, lay traps if possible and c4 the enemy base before they even have a chance to react. Most times I'm sitting at the end board at the top with 200 points with a low frag count because I took out the entire base on my own and I was the only guy who laid every single defence that kept the base secure whilst I was doing it. You can't say that making defences is all there is to utility guy so you should be awarding exp purely based on that, because I know others who use this class for reasons other than defence. I've seen Ramf doing it to name but one.

I got sick and tired of playing utility as someone who sat in the base all match making sandbags because the mines and turret slots were all used up. So I go offensive once I know there's nothing more to do, and it's a hell of a lot more fun. I think you're missing half the picture if you want to reward utility guys that wont leave the base. The exp gain for an offensive utility guy is on par with any other class. You have an effective long and short rage capability and you can camp to your heart's content; you make super caches for free and you have unlimited healing through your repair gun. If you give me more exp for the defences I left, I'll be higher in rank than most people will be sooner if people die by my defences. That's just me, I'm not trying to brag, it's just how it is. I think if you up the exp, you're giving me an unfair advantage and anyone else who uses the same style. Getting exp for mine kills will not keep me in the base either. I will leave the second all defences are placed and I'll simply soak up the easy exp and replace anything gone on my return for more. I really don't want to sound condescending and maybe I'm off the point and out of line by saying all that, but it's how it seems to me. You should give offensive utility guy a shot and see what you think if you haven't already. The award system you propose does not take into account offensive utility players so I can't support it.

Heh, sorry if I sound forward and condescending. It's not my intention.


Last edited by lefty on Mon May 10, 2010 12:33 am, edited 2 times in total.



Mon May 10, 2010 12:03 am
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Post Re: Utility Guy
I think you mean directed at Lenin; I was not accusing you of any attacks.

However, I agree with what you have said, for sure it will definitely imbalance things. Now as I see things, the only change I would now propose is this deconstruction gun that refunds part (half maybe?) of your money for turrets, and gives you exp and money for dismantling enemy turrets.

You aren't sounding condescending to me, just being realistic and I think you are right.

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Mon May 10, 2010 12:12 am
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Post Re: Utility Guy
Stalin wrote:
I think you mean directed at Lenin; I was not accusing you of any attacks.

However, I agree with what you have said, for sure it will definitely imbalance things. Now as I see things, the only change I would now propose is this deconstruction gun that refunds part (half maybe?) of your money for turrets, and gives you exp and money for dismantling enemy turrets.

You aren't sounding condescending to me, just being realistic and I think you are right.

haha, I always get you guys mixed up *facepalm*.

Would you need a seperate gun for it? The repair gun destroys fake crates, mines and c4s, your own or the enemies. Could you add to the rapair gun's coding so that it would damage enemy turrets too and reward accordingly? Add to repairing enemy fake crates so that it gives some exp and money per x amount as it does already for c4s as well. I can't remember if you get anything for mines. I don't think you do, or I've never seen it.

The only oddity left is destroying your own turrets. Keeping a track of the player id of who made them and who shot them out sounds like a bit of effort. Unless your repair gun repairs turrets already, you could add the destruction coding to your own turrets. Not sure if it does repair them tbh.


Mon May 10, 2010 12:27 am
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Post Re: Utility Guy
Just saying make it a separate gun so that regular engineers and advanced engineers don't get the same aspect (although this would be nice).

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Mon May 10, 2010 12:46 am
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Post Re: Utility Guy
Or maybe make a seperate repair gun in between the advanced repairgun and the regular repair gun? Gets more exp for sure.

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Mon May 10, 2010 2:13 am
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Post Re: Utility Guy
Or just get little exp from building stuff. It will make them want to build like crazy.


Mon May 10, 2010 10:09 am
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Post Re: Utility Guy
dark-slayer-201 wrote:
Or just get little exp from building stuff. It will make them want to build like crazy.
I don't think you carefully read the thread.

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Mon May 10, 2010 3:53 pm
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